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December 20, 2010

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Matt Warren

Hey,

It seems that you and I grew up in very similar contexts (Non-denom/Baptistish/independently governed/etc.). I would have to say that mine was a bit fundamentalist, however. I'm also having my first real (and positive) experience with Advent this year. So, I have some thoughts.

First, I think it's too broad a stroke to say that all ritual is Pharisaic. Ritual for its own sake, yes. Or, even more, ritual as a means to attain favor, absolutely. But I don't think that we can say that ritual, no less liturgy is inherently legalistic. If someone tells me that I have to celebrate Advent, or Christmas, or take offering during church in a certain way, then I think he is placing manacles on the "gospel of freedom." Same thing with drinking. If you say I can't, then pass me a Sam Adams so I can express my freedom. I used to be highly suspicious of liturgy, but I am valuing it more and more; probably because I'm hanging around a bunch of Presbyterians. At the very least, higher liturgy--and it's not that high at my church--is helping me to worship and offer praise to God in deeper and more meaningful ways. I will be taking a course this spring on the liturgical year, so we should talk more about that in a couple months.

About the you're worth it/you're not deal, I get you're point. I also get annoyed by such sayings. They're trite, sentimental, and theologically imprecise. You and I both want to say that God has redeemed for his own sake. His election is unconditional. Grace must remain free grace, or it is not grace. So, if "worth it" means that we deserve God's redemption, then it's a phrase for the trash heap. But I do think that we can say that God redeemed us because we are "worth it" in a different sense, a sense that brings our value and God's love together. What I mean to say is that we are "worth it" insofar as God has loved us from before the foundation of the world. God supplies us with "our" worth. We are worth it in that he's counted us as valuable. Our worth lies in God's deeming us worthy, not us being worthy in and of ourselves. If God didn't not think us worth it in some sense, then he would not have redeemed us.

I hope all is well. Thanks for the post.

Matt

S L Whitesell

Matt -

I was hoping you would read and I am delighted that you have commented. As to your first point, the phrasing I used was meant to express my frame of mind owing to my upbringing. I endorse everything you have said about liturgy. I am excited to explore it further in the coming months. I actually anticipated your misunderstanding but decided to leave it just so that we could have this very discussion!

And as for the second, I think you and I must be kindred spirits, since that point occurred to me as well. I still want to say that God determined in love according to His own good pleasure to come and make worthy some creatures who were decidedly not worthy. But I see your semantic point: we may term as "worth" whatever operative principle outside of ourselves was at play in God's own good pleasure. And in defining worth in this way, we are worthy. So we are in agreement on both points, and I thank you for drawing out this precision.

I hope this will impart some enabling grace:

O God, who hast caused this holy night to shine
with the illumination of the true Light:
Grant us, we beseech thee,
that as we have known the mystery of that Light upon earth,
so may we also perfectly enjoy him in heaven;
where with thee and the Holy Spirit
he liveth and reigneth, one God,
in glory everlasting. Amen
1979 Book of Common Prayer

Mom

well, I am certainly not as talented as you or your other commenters. One thing that stands out to me right away is the "liturgy".
In my uneducated opinion, liturgy should be saved for those more mature in thier faith,and foundation in their relationship with Christ. It is these practices that can lend to feelings of security and safety in ritual and familiar "behaviors/acts".
I do not see that you intend to say this, but there is no salvation in said liturgy. The lost and frank unbeleiver, could get caught up in this, confused, and frustrated.
For certain new beleivers that hail from cult-ish churches like Catoloics, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, could feel confused by our claims of Salvation by faith alone, through Christ alone...

This has only become more clear to me lately as I am bombarded daily by the lost, who are at home in these cults. It is quite pervasive in this part of the country.

S L Whitesell

Matt and I would probably agree that liturgy has the potential to be confused with regenerative ritual. We may have been the well-intentioned participants of an over-reformation: instead of contextualizing liturgy and relegating it to its proper role, the hyper-individualism of American Christianity has largely banished it.

lauris

In the first part, I think you're talking 'form and function'. The function/objective is get increasingly intimate and connected with God - whatever helps you to do that. He seeks true worshippers who worship in spirit and truth. The second part has to do with why God does what He does. He reveals some of His reasons but certainly not all. I'm just so glad He does what He does and included me.

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